Take 5 with Cindy Pon and Shveta Thakrar: Writing Across Cultural Lines with Verve and Sensitivity
Jan O'Hara on Nov 15 2010 | Filed under: Interviews, RESEARCH
Do you love fiction with fantasy elements, but despair of writing a novel which will capture an editor or agent’s attention? Have you grown weary of the traditional fare – what Smart Bitch Sarah Wendell refers to as “vamptired”? If you’ve thought of turning to other cultures for literary inspiration, but been nervous about navigating cross-cultural lines, today’s post might hold special appeal.
Joining me are Shveta Thakrar (left) and Cindy Pon. The former is currently deep in revisions on her YA manuscript which features apsaras, South Asian celestial dancers who live in the Hindu realm of Svargalok, and nagas, half-snake/half-human shape-shifters.
The latter is the author of Silver Phoenix: Beyond the Kingdom of Xia — a young adult fantasy inspired by ancient China which made Booklist’s Top Ten SF/Fantasy Books for Youth 2009. Recently, Silver Phoenix was a subject of controversy when its paperback and sequel covers were revealed; some felt they exemplified a publishing trend toward whitewashing. Cindy’s sequel, Fury of the Phoenix, will be released March 29, 2011.
In other words, my two guests know of what they speak. They helped me remove my unwittingly-colonial foot from my unwittingly-imperialist mouth during this interview’s composition. Perhaps they can do the same for you.
First, a quick disclaimer: Below, the terms “mythology” and “folklore” are used in the technical sense of “sacred stories” and “knowledge of the people,” not in the colloquial sense of “untruths.” Use of the terms is not intended to cast any aspersions on the credence or truth of the ideas and beliefs.
Jan: Ladies, you’re fresh from Sirens 2010 and a panel designed to empower cultural diversity in fantasy and paranormal fiction. Who were your co-panelists, and how did you find your reception?
ST: Four of us took part: Andrea Horbinski, Valerie Frankel, Cindy, and I. Our panel, “Are There Faeries Outside Western Europe?”, discussed various fey from around the world and their presence in literature. (You can read a recap and download the handout here.) We were thrilled by the turnout; a good forty-five percent of the conference attendees showed up, and they asked wonderful questions, including what they could do and how to write respectfully. It’s clear that there’s a desire for fantasy fiction based on the lore of the whole world, not just one part, and that’s really exciting.
Cindy, can you tell us about resources for a writer who might wish to include non-Western mythologies and religions in their fiction?*
CP: I honestly don’t think it’s any different than research you would do for Western mythologies. But I think there is a sense of familiarity for most writers in Western myth–since many of us grew up reading it, and to move beyond that into other cultures can be a little intimidating. I speak some Mandarin but only at the most elementary level (I came to the United States when I was six). So although I may have grown up hearing some of the more familiar traditions centered around holidays, I certainly didn’t know more myth than the average American. I did research online and looked at books available just as any other writer would.
People in academia or who are familiar and grew up with the culture and stories are definitely good resources as well. But all I used was the internet. In fact, the main book I used for inspiration for Silver Phoenix is unknown and unread by most Chinese, it is so ancient and obscure.
My advice would be, don’t let fear and unfamiliarity stop you from pushing yourself as a writer and broadening your horizons in all ways. My own endeavor as a writer is to constantly challenge myself with each new project.
Some of the beliefs or creatures our readers may wish to research and/or incorporate into their fiction are still part of living traditions and religions for other worlds. Can you give advice about balancing respect for another culture while possibly needing to adapt their stories for a particular manuscript?
ST: I’d say first and foremost, do your research. Start by familiarizing yourself with the traditions in question. For example, if a culture or group prefers their mythology not be used outside their traditions, really consider if it’s necessary to your story. (Of course, this won’t always be the case, but you can never go wrong being respectful.) Remember that none of this exists in a vacuum. If you then draw upon the folklore or mythology, remember you are borrowing, and act accordingly.
Sometimes you’ll have to adapt things to fit your story, and that’s fine; just make sure you know the source material, and then tread carefully. Think about what you want to change and why. Don’t take lazy shortcuts and portray all dark-skinned peoples/beings as evil, etc.; instead, create nuanced, complex worlds and characters that honor the original.
The main thing is to write with respect and remember that we’re all people, and all our stories matter. I can’t stress that enough.
CP: I think with using elements that are current religions and traditions, one needs to especially be careful about how they are portraying and interpreting the story. But the fact of the matter is, no matter how much research you do and how respectfully you handle a topic, character, etc, you will probably offend someone. And this isn’t just in regards to the topics at hand (which one can see as being more sensitive) but happens for all authors in general, no matter what we write.
My advice from my own lessons learned with my debut publication is to write and send into the world what you can stand by. Know in your heart that this is the best you did in all ways for your novel — that you can believe in it and back it. Because once it’s out there, you can’t control the reader’s reaction to your story. They will often interpret it in ways you never intended — and that’s why reading is so personal for everyone.
Shveta, the process of writing story can change the writer him/herself, oftentimes for the better. In your case, your path to writing about non-Western fae was partly a decision to embrace your own ethnicity. Did the process help? If so, how?
ST: I was born and raised in America, and there were plenty of years when I didn’t think much about my heritage. But in doing research, I realized I need that connection. I need to be able to write about these things and share them both with readers who are familiar with them and readers who aren’t. I want everyone to see how we’re similar and different and to celebrate that — in fiction, in art, in life. If I had my way, we’d all take world folklore and mythology and comprehensive world history classes in school. Imagine how it would change the collective mindset if we really thought on a global level!
My personal journey hasn’t always been easy. I’ve wondered if one person could really make a difference. I’ve heard many examples of how publishing doesn’t necessarily embrace diversity. But I do believe every effort counts, and I’ve spoken to enough people who are curious and hungry for something new to know things are changing. I’m so glad to be part of that.
If people have questions about cultural diversity in general, and non-Western mythologies in particular, where would you like them to reach you?
CP: They are welcome to visit my blog and post comments or to contact me via email or Twitter. I’m a bit of an internet addict and am all over the web! The info is on my website. =)
Also, next April, both Malinda Lo and I will have Asian-inspired YA fantasies releasing: Huntress and Fury of the Phoenix. We thought this was a cause for celebration, and have worked hard to put together a Diversity Tour — specifically featuring ethnically-diverse authors and novels in the middle grade and young adult genres.
We’d love for your readership to visit our Diversity in Young Adult Fiction website (DIYA)! They can sign up for our mailing list so they won’t miss future updates.
ST: Readers are certainly welcome to contact me via my LiveJournal in comments or private messages, but I’d also like to point out some excellent resources:
- Writing the Other® workshop
- Writing the Other Shout-Outs
- and Mary Anne Mohanraj Gets You Up to Speed, parts I and II.
Jan again: Many thanks to you both for being here today and for the helpful references. Shveta, good luck with your revisions and Cindy, woot for your sequel’s release!
Peeps, Cindy and Shveta have agreed to answer your questions today, as best they can. Please make yourselves at home in the comment section!
























Love Cindy’s advice here: “My advice would be, don’t let fear and unfamiliarity stop you from pushing yourself as a writer and broadening your horizons in all ways. My own endeavor as a writer is to constantly challenge myself with each new project.”
As a writer of Asian descent, I definitely appreciate what these women are doing to bring diversity to fiction, especially YA fiction. And I hope to continue the cause along with them someday! :)
Kristan´s last blog post ..Writerly Wednesday
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(Hmm, to clarify: I don’t write books thinking, “Oh, I need to foster more diversity in the world of fiction,” and I imagine these women don’t either. But our cultural heritage IS a part of us, and just like any other writer, we use what’s inside us to create our stories.)
Kristan´s last blog post ..Writerly Wednesday
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[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by ThereseWalsh, Tracy Hahn-Burkett. Tracy Hahn-Burkett said: RT @ThereseWalsh: Take 5 with Cindy Pon and Shveta Thakrar: Writing Across Cultural Lines with Verve and Sensitivity http://t.co/DDk884a [...]
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Nice interview. And adorable photo.
“Once it’s out there, you can’t control the reader’s reaction to the story.” Good advice for all wriers.
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It’s exciting for me to think that as my daughter grows, there will be a wide variety of people and cultures for her to experience as a reader. And
“My advice from my own lessons learned with my debut publication is to write and send into the world what you can stand by. Know in your heart that this is the best you did in all ways for your novel — that you can believe in it and back it,” is good advice no matter what you are writing.
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Well done. There is a lot of Irish in my four novels. Although I’m part Scots, my parents and grandparents were born and raised in the USA, so there hasn’t been any non-WASP culture in my upbringing.
Pretty much all the Irish culture came from the Internet. English-Irish lexicons, Irish Gaelic, Name generators, etc., were all tools.
In my particular case, all the ethnics were for flavor and I tried not to put too much of the flavor in the novels. The fact the main characters are Irish and have quite a bit of the Irish culture in there background was part of the characterization, not an essential part of the stories.
I’ve had several Irish readers; non have taken me to task about too much or too little.
Plus, there is a glossary for terms.
Ethnics/culture is definitely a balancing act. Writing in too much dialect is probably confusing to many readers. Put in enough for the proper flavor.
Who knows, perhaps your introduction of a culture’s mythology and folklore could spark an interest in a reader or perhaps inspire them to investigate their own ethnic roots.
Bruce H. Johnson´s last blog post ..Artists and Critics
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thanks for reading and commenting everyone! and jan
for inviting me and shveta here!
kristan, thank you! and i never wrote on a conscious level to make any statements, but since i’ve started the Diversity in YA endeavor, i’ve realized that on a subconsious level, i did indeed write the novel that i never got to read as a teen. all the novels i read and love still while growing up never had someone who looked like me in them. and i think that my books are definitely from an “asian-american” perspective.
liz and kelly, i think the learning curve is huge as a debut novelist and it’s a constant need to navigate your own feelings and thoughts about being published. what you quoted are two of the Biggest Lessons i learned as a debut novelist. i’m glad it resonated with you.
bruce, i think it’s great you included irish character(s) in your novel. i’d counter that it’s more than flavor. your characters are living breathing people within the pages of your book (or beyond, sometimes!) and being from a different culture really shapes the way they view and react to the world. this shapes how they act and react, and can influence their action throughout the novel.
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This is something I’ve been thinking and blogging a lot about of late. I am in the middle of research for an eventual verse novel about a Gitano girl (Spanish gypsy).
I’ve been through a whole realm of emotions and explanations (mainly to myself) on why it’s acceptable for me to write outside my culture, why it’s okay to focus on a group of people who’ve had such a persecuted history, and why the challenge to be accurate and respectful can be tricky.
Ultimately, it’s our humanity that unites us. I’ve come to the conclusion that because I know what it’s like to be human, I’m “allowed” to try to tell this girl’s story.
Caroline Starr Rose´s last blog post ..Only in Memory
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Wonderful interview, all! I was such a folklore nut as a kid — I would have loved to have had your books at that time, and I’m sure there are plenty of YA readers who are so excited to be able to read something that is new to them or alternately, that speaks to them about their own cultures.
As for whether one person can make a change or not, I think there are a lot of us out there, trying to make our small positive contributions–that’s by and large how big change happens. Thanks to everyone here who is making those kinds of changes. They add up.
Lisa Brackmann´s last blog post ..ROCK PAPER TIGER in Amazon’s Best Books of 2010
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Cindy and Shveta, I so appreciate you doing this. I’m getting comments on my blog and in private that would say people are hungry to write about “the other”, they understand the responsibility that comes from doing so, but they’re not sure they are up to the task. Besides the resources you’ve given us – and thank you for them – I also took away the idea that my *intent* counts for a lot, even if the execution is flawed.
Jan O’Hara´s last blog post ..Writing Across Cultural Lines- the Week’s Schedule- and Results of Kathryn Magendie’s SWEETIE Giveaway
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I’m so glad to see all these comments! Thank you all for reading and offering your thoughts. I can’t wait to see what you all come up with!
There are a couple things I’d like to add. Like Caroline Starr Rose concluded, we are all people, and our job as writers entails stepping into the heads of others and living their lives for a bit. In other words, exercising empathy and putting the results on the page. My personal thought is that no story should be off-limits to anyone (unless, of course, a culture or group specifically requested to be left alone, but even then, you have to come to your own decision), as long as the necessary prep work is done.
On a lighter note, let’s not forget to have fun doing this. I don’t want writing about other cultures/peoples we may not be so familiar with to come off as a chore. Sure, research is necessary and sometimes even inspiring, but we’re doing this storytelling thing ’cause telling tales is fun! It doesn’t all have to be serious and hard.
It’s easy to forget that while worrying about making a mistake, and I get that. But as Cindy said, we will all get called on things, no matter what we do or how we do it, so all we can do is our best–and enjoy ourselves along the way.
Shveta Thakrar´s last blog post ..Writing retreat and interview with me
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caroline, i always say that fantasy is so great to read because no matter how crazy and wild the story may get, the story is grounded in the human experience. this is so with all great reads, isn’t i? and yes, it’s more challenging to write outside of the familiar and the comfort zone, but i think it’s a good thing when we challenge ourselves and write what calls to us. good luck on your writing endeavors!
jan, so true about intent.
lisa, thank you!! and yes, it’s change with one story at a time.
so eloquently said, shveta, as always.
cindy pon´s last blog post ..afternoon snack
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[...] Jan O’Hara interviews Cindy Pon and Schveta Thakrar about writing across cultural boundaries. [...]
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Wow. Thanks so much for these thoughts, what a great post! Now I want to check out Silver Phoenix!!
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People interested in this discussion might also be interested in Dystel and Goderich’s post today. It’s more about whether writers can/should tell stories that “belong” to another culture/race/gender, etc., but both of these posts have made me think about diversity in contemporary writing. Like I said over there, I think it’s important that you just do your research. Like these posters said, you’ll probably offend someone no matter what you do, but there’s a whole world of cultures and myths and settings waiting to be written about, and it can be done well provided it is researched and approached with respect.
(And nope, I’m not affiliated with D&G. Just think it’s crazy when certain ideas seem to pop up on similar blogs around the same time.)
I’m interested in both of these writers now, even though I’m not much into YA! A while ago (back in May, I think–yikes!), I had made a post about wanting to read stories influenced by non-Western myths, so these will definitely go on my TBA list.
Kristin Laughtin´s last blog post ..Im writing SCIENCE!
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ellie, thanks!
kristin, Silver Phoenix definitely is upper YA. in fact, i wrote it as an adult fantasy, and it wasn’t until i queried agents that i found out it could be considered YA. i hope you do read more books based on non-western myth!
and yes, research is key but also respect i think (as jan said, intent). and an awareness of sensitivities, which does vary. this is why if at all possible, having a beta read from someone of that group or culture is always very helpful.
i’ll have to google for D&G’s blog. i think the time is ripe right now for more diverse stories, and it’s at the forefront of many writer, publisher and agent’s thoughts. it’s the reason malinda lo and i felt that the Diversity in YA tour would be a fantastic thing.
cindy pon´s last blog post ..afternoon snack
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Great post! I loved Silver Phoenix, and I’m excited to read the sequel. I rarely read YA or fantasy, yet I was captivated by the mythological elements in the story, and I felt I had been invited into a rich and enchanting world previously unknown to me.
I love when I can have this kind of reading experience, and I’m glad to see more of it available to us.
Donna Cummings´s last blog post ..I Blame It All on Jessica Fletcher
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donna, that’s one of the best compliments, when i get a reader that doesn’t read fantasy or YA (which was my critique group, actually!) then say they really enjoyed my debut. thanks so much for letting me know and i hope you like Fury as well. i looked to challenge myself in the sequel. =)
cindy pon´s last blog post ..afternoon snack
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Wonderful interviews! I have always enjoyed reading mythologies from around the world and I think it’s important that both writers and readers learn to enjoy and respect what every culture has to offer.
Krista Magrowski´s last blog post ..Achievement
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If I had my way, we’d all take world folklore and mythology and comprehensive world history classes in school. Imagine how it would change the collective mindset if we really thought on a global level!
I’d sign that petition! I enjoyed dipping into Javanese mythology for my novel, and I certainly never would have heard the stories if not for my own research. In general, I think we all need to learn more about life outside our borders.
Thanks, Cindy, Shveta, and Jan, for a fantastic interview!
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thank you, krista and therese!
it was a pleasure to be here!
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Love love love this interview. Someone just sent me here from my own recent web rant about Orientalism/ exoticism in YA lit – love that interconnectivity of the web!
http://storiesaregoodmedicine.blogspot.com/2010/11/hands-off-my-cultcha-should-only-ethnic.html
Cindy and Shveta are wonderful role models forging the way for more multicultural fantasy in the market! Hooray!
– Sayantani
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Reading all the above comments has been inspiring for new writers. With the crossing of all the cultural boundaries, no more hampering thoughts are blocking my mind.Will my Indian background for the characters stand up in front of the international readers ? Should I change the scene to suit my readers? But then it is my fantasy and how can I do justice to my characters, if as their creator, I try to change them? A big thanks to each one of you for inspiring me to stay true to myself.
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Just popping in to say I’m so glad you folks found this helpful and inspiring. Thank you for taking the time to pass that on. :)
Jan O’Hara´s last blog post ..Awhooooo! Interview with Timothy Power- Author of THE BOY WHO HOWLED – Part Deux
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[...] If you remember, in November I interviewed Cindy Pon and Shveta Thakrar for Writer Unboxed about writing the culturally diverse novel. Cindy’s book, Silver Phoenix, is now available in paperback with its new, edgier cover art. [...]
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