Comments on: Embracing difference http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/ about the craft and business of fiction Sat, 11 Feb 2012 02:26:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Juliet http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-122253 Juliet Sun, 02 Aug 2009 13:42:04 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-122253 I had to rush off and look this up, Emma! There is a slight hint of this, true - two of Johnny's men show some special interest in Fainne when she visits the island. X and Y are quite young at this point and may still be working out their true feelings for each other. But more likely, as you suggest, Fainne is so socially inexperienced that she misinterprets Y's smiles and glances (after all, young Coll has suggested Y as a potential husband for her!) Y is a friendly, kind person and is just trying to put her at ease. I seem to remember that it was after I wrote the scene in which everyone thinks X has drowned that I decided X and Y might have a closer relationship than that of best friends. I had to rush off and look this up, Emma! There is a slight hint of this, true – two of Johnny’s men show some special interest in Fainne when she visits the island.

X and Y are quite young at this point and may still be working out their true feelings for each other. But more likely, as you suggest, Fainne is so socially inexperienced that she misinterprets Y’s smiles and glances (after all, young Coll has suggested Y as a potential husband for her!) Y is a friendly, kind person and is just trying to put her at ease.

I seem to remember that it was after I wrote the scene in which everyone thinks X has drowned that I decided X and Y might have a closer relationship than that of best friends.

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]]> By: Emma http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-122223 Emma Sun, 02 Aug 2009 04:36:31 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-122223 I realize this thread has been dead for months, but I wonder if maybe some readers were surprised about this relationship because in Child of the Prophecy, we were under the impression that Y had a crush on Fainne? Of course, there are at least half a dozen good explanations for that (my personal favorite is that Fainne wasn't enough of a people-person to accurately judge whether or not someone had a crush, but I realize he could just as easily be bi, faking, or unaware of his homosexuality at that point), but this may explain why people thought the gay relationship wasn't true to character. I realize this thread has been dead for months, but I wonder if maybe some readers were surprised about this relationship because in Child of the Prophecy, we were under the impression that Y had a crush on Fainne? Of course, there are at least half a dozen good explanations for that (my personal favorite is that Fainne wasn’t enough of a people-person to accurately judge whether or not someone had a crush, but I realize he could just as easily be bi, faking, or unaware of his homosexuality at that point), but this may explain why people thought the gay relationship wasn’t true to character.

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]]> By: Mark Nash http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-105301 Mark Nash Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:20:21 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-105301 If you can do it well, it's well worth doing, I think. But the key to writing well about characters of diverse backgrounds and experiences comes from the author's own experience in these areas. If your social world is not particularly diverse, and if you have not fully explored the implications of the experiences of people different from yourself (whatever dimension we're discussing), then the character itself will ring hollow, and the effect will come across as an effort to inject diversity for its own sake. In order to write across lines of race, class, or sexual orientation, it helps to have a depth of experience across those lines. If you do, the characters will come naturally and the diversity will take care of itself. If you can do it well, it’s well worth doing, I think. But the key to writing well about characters of diverse backgrounds and experiences comes from the author’s own experience in these areas. If your social world is not particularly diverse, and if you have not fully explored the implications of the experiences of people different from yourself (whatever dimension we’re discussing), then the character itself will ring hollow, and the effect will come across as an effort to inject diversity for its own sake. In order to write across lines of race, class, or sexual orientation, it helps to have a depth of experience across those lines. If you do, the characters will come naturally and the diversity will take care of itself.

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]]> By: Kaylee http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-95995 Kaylee Mon, 15 Dec 2008 03:17:03 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-95995 "No one blinked an eye at Dumbledore being gay, and if they did, they got over it." I beg to differ. This revelation got a huge uproar from many HP fans. But when Ms. Rowling affirmed this fact, the roar quieted. I don't think those who were upset really accepted it. But he's Rowling's character, not theirs. So they didn't have anywhere to go with their outrage. I agree with Juliet. Including all racial and abilities smacks of artificiality to me as well. I see it especially in the Disney works. It's like they seek ways to diversify their casts, even if in the regular world, people tend to stick with their "own" kind. Research keeps showing us that we like to be with others who are like us more than with those who are different. It seems to be in our genes, this tribal affinity. I can't see any reason to not write a story that shows this research in action. But then I'll probably never see my work published, either. “No one blinked an eye at Dumbledore being gay, and if they did, they got over it.”

I beg to differ. This revelation got a huge uproar from many HP fans. But when Ms. Rowling affirmed this fact, the roar quieted.

I don’t think those who were upset really accepted it. But he’s Rowling’s character, not theirs. So they didn’t have anywhere to go with their outrage.

I agree with Juliet. Including all racial and abilities smacks of artificiality to me as well. I see it especially in the Disney works. It’s like they seek ways to diversify their casts, even if in the regular world, people tend to stick with their “own” kind.

Research keeps showing us that we like to be with others who are like us more than with those who are different. It seems to be in our genes, this tribal affinity. I can’t see any reason to not write a story that shows this research in action.

But then I’ll probably never see my work published, either.

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]]> By: amy http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94761 amy Sun, 07 Dec 2008 15:41:42 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94761 Conversely, I think that if there is no diversity in a story (unless that is the point), then it simply shows that the author hasn't done a decent job in fleshing out setting and/or characters. It's just not realistic without diversity, whether it's race, gender, sexuality, physical ability, etc. What I loved about the Sevenwaters trilogy is that even though there may not have been diversity in what we would consider "race" today, it did feature interactions and cultural differences between people who saw themselves as very different from each other. Writing diversity (whether race, gender, sexuality, class or culture) is a part of good world-building and characterization. It doesn't have to be the PC race thing that people in our times automatically think about when the word "diversity" gets mentioned. But diversity is a part of human history, and to ignore its ramifications and effects, slices off part of the human story. My current WIP, an urban fantasy, includes an ex-Marine veteran of Iraq who happens to be Japanese-American and gay. Those particular aspects of his personality have little bearing on the story I'm writing, but this was one of those characters who pulled me by the ears and said, "Tell my story." Conversely, I think that if there is no diversity in a story (unless that is the point), then it simply shows that the author hasn’t done a decent job in fleshing out setting and/or characters. It’s just not realistic without diversity, whether it’s race, gender, sexuality, physical ability, etc. What I loved about the Sevenwaters trilogy is that even though there may not have been diversity in what we would consider “race” today, it did feature interactions and cultural differences between people who saw themselves as very different from each other.

Writing diversity (whether race, gender, sexuality, class or culture) is a part of good world-building and characterization. It doesn’t have to be the PC race thing that people in our times automatically think about when the word “diversity” gets mentioned. But diversity is a part of human history, and to ignore its ramifications and effects, slices off part of the human story.

My current WIP, an urban fantasy, includes an ex-Marine veteran of Iraq who happens to be Japanese-American and gay. Those particular aspects of his personality have little bearing on the story I’m writing, but this was one of those characters who pulled me by the ears and said, “Tell my story.”

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]]> By: Juliet http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94573 Juliet Sat, 06 Dec 2008 01:00:21 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94573 J R, you make some good points there. It's true, readers often make judgements based on their own beliefs or values. Anyone who expects Judeo-Christian values in any novel set in 'the olden days' might do some research into the culture of ancient Greece. The period of my book is late enough in Irish history to have some extant written records, including substantial writings on Brehon law, as well as works of Christian scholarship. It's at a time when Christianity is fast overtaking the older faith to which most of the central characters adhere. So there would be a double set of social expectations which might well require these guys to be a little circumspect in their behaviour. J R, you make some good points there. It’s true, readers often make judgements based on their own beliefs or values. Anyone who expects Judeo-Christian values in any novel set in ‘the olden days’ might do some research into the culture of ancient Greece.

The period of my book is late enough in Irish history to have some extant written records, including substantial writings on Brehon law, as well as works of Christian scholarship. It’s at a time when Christianity is fast overtaking the older faith to which most of the central characters adhere. So there would be a double set of social expectations which might well require these guys to be a little circumspect in their behaviour.

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]]> By: Dawn Embers http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94564 Dawn Embers Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:36:08 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94564 Well, almost all of my main characters are gay men. That is just what I write. They have relationships, some get married and others don't, and they deal with situations that straight people do. When it comes to ethnicity and such, I don't usually make the characters any one specific culture or race. Sometimes I'll use a name or description to reference one but for the most part I leave that up to the reader. Well, almost all of my main characters are gay men. That is just what I write. They have relationships, some get married and others don’t, and they deal with situations that straight people do.

When it comes to ethnicity and such, I don’t usually make the characters any one specific culture or race. Sometimes I’ll use a name or description to reference one but for the most part I leave that up to the reader.

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]]> By: J. R. Tomlin http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94556 J. R. Tomlin Fri, 05 Dec 2008 20:45:22 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94556 The assumption that homosexuality was forbidden or frowned on in all societies in history is quite incorrect. Just because it is in Judeo/Christian cultures doesn't make that universal. Some frowned on it or forbad it and others accepted it quite readily. The idea that it was forbidden "then" is totally wrong, but is a very common fallacy. Considering the almost complete distruction of the Celtic culture and the lack of historical records, there is no way of knowing what their attitude was. Someone who objects is doing so on the basis of Judeo/Christian beliefs and not on the beliefs of the times. The assumption that homosexuality was forbidden or frowned on in all societies in history is quite incorrect. Just because it is in Judeo/Christian cultures doesn’t make that universal.

Some frowned on it or forbad it and others accepted it quite readily. The idea that it was forbidden “then” is totally wrong, but is a very common fallacy. Considering the almost complete distruction of the Celtic culture and the lack of historical records, there is no way of knowing what their attitude was.

Someone who objects is doing so on the basis of Judeo/Christian beliefs and not on the beliefs of the times.

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]]> By: Juliet http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94494 Juliet Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:42:11 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94494 Becky, that's a good point that a couple of people have made. Yes, I do realise that in that time and culture this kind of relationship would most likely have been kept quiet, as it would have been outside acceptable community standards (but not against Brehon law as far as I can discover.) Possible SPOILERS for Heir to Sevenwaters below: Now consider how it's presented in the book. X and Y keep it secret beyond their home location. We only get a few people's direct reactions. One is Clodagh's, and I've explained in my post how this fits with her character and the story's themes. One is Cathal's. He is more of an outsider than anyone else in the book - this wouldn't shock him. Clodagh's parents are community leaders but also individuals. I believe each responds according to his or her own background, personality and circumstances. Sean is a pragmatist. He does what he judges best for the good of his family and all those he is responsible for as Lord of Sevenwaters. In fact, he never refers publicly to this matter - check out his speech to the local chieftains if you doubt me! There's no implication that the wider community of Sevenwaters knows anything about this. As for the location where X and Y spend most of their time, it has long been a haven for those who don't fit into mainstream society for one reason or another. Bran's warrior band was formed from just such men. That ethos would continue even after he had moved away. There is no way anyone would discriminate against these two in such a place. Becky, that’s a good point that a couple of people have made. Yes, I do realise that in that time and culture this kind of relationship would most likely have been kept quiet, as it would have been outside acceptable community standards (but not against Brehon law as far as I can discover.)

Possible SPOILERS for Heir to Sevenwaters below:

Now consider how it’s presented in the book. X and Y keep it secret beyond their home location. We only get a few people’s direct reactions. One is Clodagh’s, and I’ve explained in my post how this fits with her character and the story’s themes. One is Cathal’s. He is more of an outsider than anyone else in the book – this wouldn’t shock him. Clodagh’s parents are community leaders but also individuals. I believe each responds according to his or her own background, personality and circumstances. Sean is a pragmatist. He does what he judges best for the good of his family and all those he is responsible for as Lord of Sevenwaters. In fact, he never refers publicly to this matter – check out his speech to the local chieftains if you doubt me! There’s no implication that the wider community of Sevenwaters knows anything about this.

As for the location where X and Y spend most of their time, it has long been a haven for those who don’t fit into mainstream society for one reason or another. Bran’s warrior band was formed from just such men. That ethos would continue even after he had moved away. There is no way anyone would discriminate against these two in such a place.

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]]> By: Satima Flavell http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94489 Satima Flavell Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:17:04 +0000 http://writerunboxed.com/2008/12/04/embracing-difference/#comment-94489 If a character was telling me s/he was gay I would include it in the story, but not just for the sake of looking PC. I think everything included in a book should further some aspect of the plot or characterisation, as in your feeling that it was OK for this character to be outed as it emphasised your MC's open-minded attitude to differences among people. If a character was telling me s/he was gay I would include it in the story, but not just for the sake of looking PC. I think everything included in a book should further some aspect of the plot or characterisation, as in your feeling that it was OK for this character to be outed as it emphasised your MC’s open-minded attitude to differences among people.

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